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Post by hecklejeckle87 on Dec 4, 2023 17:12:16 GMT -5
I'm creating this thread so that there is a place to discuss Pokémon Moves. Yes, I know there is a Discord but some people don't use discord and traditional Forums have some advantages over trying to search through a Discord. With that out of the way.
Creating Moves are (to use the wording of the rule book), "very free form". While this can be a strength, it can also be confusing since every single move has to be translated into the format of a TTRPG. With that in mind,
There is also the issue that since the game is very minimalist, the difference between very similar moves is non-existent.
Take the Moves Bubble & Bubble Beam. In the video game the reason there are two different moves is that Bubble Beam has an attack power of 65 while Bubble has an Attack Power of 40. Both Moves have the same secondary effect of sometimes lowering the Speed of the target.
But since Pokeymanz does not have Attack Power, both Bubble and Bubble Beam end up being essentially the same move.
Bubble/Bubble Beam (Water)
The Pokemon sprays the target with bubbles. This might sometimes lower the Target's Speed.
Then there is the issue of "Speed".
"On first glance, Moves that increase Speed seem to have no use in Pokeymanz, but on a general basis, priority Moves like Quick Attack can be used to act out of turn in initiative, and Moves that increase Speed could be used to permanently shift initiative order or give other Moves Priority." (page 62, version 5.1)
Decreasing speed has the same issues as increasing speed. Aka, the Game Master has to figure out what changing Speed will even DO.
This is not the only Pokémon Move I plan to discuss, it is simply the first one.
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Post by hecklejeckle87 on Dec 4, 2023 17:23:43 GMT -5
Leech Seed (Grass)
The Target is planted with seeds that drain its health.
To me, Leech Seed works kind of like Poison.
Poison
"The Pokémon is poisoned, a chemical or biological agent coursing through their system and weakening them. For every round a Pokémon is poisoned, their Toughness is reduced by 1 at the end of their turn until they’re retired from battle or faint. If Toughness dips to 0, the Pokémon automatically faints (and is cured of poison as it runs its course)." (Page 69, version 5.1)
So to me, the actual Mechanical Effects of Leech Seed seem to be
1) Reduce the Toughness of the target by 1 at the end of their turn.
2) Restore the Toughness of the User by 1 at the end of their turn.
Leech Seed (Grass)
The Target is seeded and loses 1 Toughness per round at the end of their turn. The user in turn has 1 Toughness restored at the same time.
Speaking of Poison, there are a lot of Moves which have a Chance to Poison the target.
Poison Sting/Jab
The target is stung/jabbed/stabbed, this attack has a chance to poison.
Which leaves the question, what is the chance of Poison happening? To answer that we can look at Critical Hits...
"The Move inflicts a Status Effect. Many Moves have secondary effects, like inflicting burns, freezing, paralysis, confusion, or even holding the opposing Pokémon in place. A Critical Hit should allow the Move to inflict a secondary effect that logically makes sense on top of a Wound." (Page 59, version 5.1)
Taking this into account, a move like Poison Sting/Jab turns into...
Poison Sting/Jab (Poison)
The Target is stung/jabbed/stabbed by the user. On a Critical Hit the Target is Poisoned.
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Post by hecklejeckle87 on Dec 4, 2023 17:49:35 GMT -5
Recoil Moves...There are enough Recoil Moves that they have their own whole page on Bulbapedia. bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/RecoilIn the video games, the amount of Recoil damage changes based on the move, with the recoil damage ranging from 1/4 of the damage dealt to 1/2 of the users Maximum HP. The trade off being that these moves tend to have a VERY high Attack Power. But Pokeymanz has neither an Attack Power stat nor HP. What Pokeymanz does have are bonuses to the Attack Roll, Toughness, and Wounds. So, the question is this. How do we translate Recoil Moves into Pokeymanz? Since the moves in this system are supposed to be very free form I see a few options. 1) Just ignore the recoil & ignore the high attack power of the move. This basically just makes the move a re-flavored Tackle/etc. A simple solution and there is nothing inherently wrong with simple solutions. Personally I think this is a little boring, but there is nothing inherently wrong with boring. 2) Do a simple 1 for 1. If the attack connects and deals a wound, the user takes a wound. I do NOT like this solution but it is an option. 2b) The target takes 2 wounds while the user takes 1 wound. Better then the previous option, but considering the low amount of wounds in Pokeymanz this might be considered OP. 3) If the attack connects and deals a wound, the user takes -1 Toughness. This is honestly what I have been doing in the games I run. It still deals Recoil damage, but the Recoil is not so severe as to not be worth it. That said, both 2 & 3 leave us with the question of why would the user want to suffer recoil? For this we can look at Translating Move Effects on page 64 (version 5.1) "A 50% increase in damage (or in the case of status Moves, accuracy) is generally translated as +1 to the Move roll." With all of this taken into account, an example of how I would create the Move Flare Blitz... bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Flare_Blitz_(move) Flare Blitz (Fire)The user gets a +1 to their Attack Roll. If the attack hits the User takes -1 Toughness Damage as Recoil. I'm sure there are other ways to run Recoil Moves, but these are the solutions I came up with.
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Post by Pika on Dec 4, 2023 18:49:07 GMT -5
No, please, absolutely. I've been saying this for a while, and it's why the forums exist at all. I think the fact that you have to join a discord and search through a channel to get to discussions like this, for all of its availability to people on that platform, fucking sucks for someone who just wants to look at a website and see what other people said without a login. The discord is great for finding games and keeping the community active, but it's fundamentally not the same as publicly-visible forums. This fucking rules!
As for the moves in question, yeah, I think we've had similar discussions. Leech Seed tends to be ruled very similar to what you came up with, and recoil is an oft-looked upon topic. I've seen stuff like +2 to an attack for a Wound, +1 for -1 Toughness, or off the top of my head, you could give it a bonus and then make hits worsen the situation somehow like triggering a hazard that hits you and/or others.
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Post by Pika on Dec 4, 2023 19:02:54 GMT -5
Sorry, I got so excited about someone using the forums for their cool advantages I completely forgot the speed thing maybe I should lower my speed amirite gamers
Anyway, I get you. This is perhaps THE tradeoff that I had to make in allowing Moves to be freeform. Allowing them to be this freeform and udefined has two important advantages that cannot be overstated:
1) It means that in different situations, different Moves can be used for different interpretations of their effects. In the example above, Speed can affect evasion from status Moves, which could be the difference between eating a status or not, or changing the initiative, which could be the difference between getting hit or not, or give priority, which could make a beam struggle... etcetera!
The thing about this is that while the GM adjudicates, the player is the one who is supposed to be pitching these effects TO be adjudicated. Move use in this system is, by design, a conversation. It has the sides of the coin where people who don't want to come up with a bunch of new move effects have very little to fall back on without absorbing the general principle, but it grants the freedom to do some truly impressively crazy stuff that is so incredibly situational that writing down the moves would not allow for those things to happen. This is a valid reason to not like the system and you have to enjoy bullshitting to some extent to really get into it. Not for everyone!
2) I don't have to write and lay out a giant encyclopedia of every Move in the game and you don't have to have it open and read it.
2a) Because of 2), the book will never have to be updated for future games.
This is acknowledged and is covered under "Larning New Moves" under the Advancement section:
It's just kinda a thing. Similar Moves are interchangeable.
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Post by hecklejeckle87 on Dec 5, 2023 13:10:45 GMT -5
2) I don't have to write and lay out a giant encyclopedia of every Move in the game and you don't have to have it open and read it. 2a) Because of 2), the book will never have to be updated for future games. Oh believe me, I GET this point and understand it 100%. Doesn't mean that it doesn't create work for me as the GM when I am trying to learn what to me is a new system while also teaching it to new players. But that is ALSO part of the reason that I started this Forum Topic. "Writing is Thinking" Having to write out my thoughts like this helps organize my thoughts as I try to understand the moves. 95% of the time they aren't that complicated. But then you have the weird cases such as Recoil Moves. |
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Post by hecklejeckle87 on Dec 5, 2023 16:02:40 GMT -5
Counter and Mirror Coatbulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Counter_(move)bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mirror_Coat_(move)These moves essentially do the same thing, except one is a Fighting move and the other is a Psychic move, so immunities can come into play (Psychic v Dark & Fighting v Ghost). But that is secondary to the big question. HOW to make these moves without... A) Making the moves too Powerful B) Making the moves too Weak By the very nature of the move, the User has to have taken actual Damage. In the terms of Pokeymanz that means taking a Wound. My immediate thought is to think that if the user takes a Wound, then the damaging attack would inflict 2 Wounds. I'm not sure how I feel about this because it almost feels too powerful. It is essentially an AUTOMATIC Critical Hit Damage Increase without having to Spend a Point of Mastery. This make these moves very good and in my opinion a little OP. But the alternative I see would be simply to do a 1 Wound for 1 Wound. Which almost makes these moves kind of pointless. Maybe give a +1 (or more) to the Attack roll to compensate...? I don't know, I'm open to suggestions?
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Post by hecklejeckle87 on Dec 6, 2023 13:06:31 GMT -5
Multi-Hit MovesANOTHER type of move that gets its own page on Bulbapedia bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Multi-strike_moveThere is some slight guidance on what to do for a Multi-Hit Move... "Multi-Hit Moves are tricky. It is recommended NEVER to rule these Moves as extra attacks or more than two Wounds, as that breaks the game’s “action economy”. They do open up a lot of unique possible advantages in battle, however. A Pokémon could use the extra effect of a Critical Hit to hit another opposing Pokémon on the field for a Wound instead of dealing extra damage to their target, partially bypass guards with quick successive strikes, or maybe even Beam Struggle and still get to attack with a penalty on their turn afterwards." (Page 61, v 5.1) I'll be honest, except for the advice to NOT inflict more than 1 wound this doesn't seem that helpful. So what COULD we do? I have a few ideas. 1) Rerolls: Like Advantage in a certain very popular game, the move has "Advantage" and lets the user roll twice and use the best value. Not the worst idea, but then these moves basically always have MASTERY. I'll be honest it sounds a little OP. 2) Reroll 1s: Not as broken as always getting to roll twice. But it sill provides a benefit that would make a person seriously consider taking the move. Double Kick (Fighting) bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Double_Kick_(move) A double-kicking attack that strikes the foe twice. (User gets to reroll any 1s) Edit: Loaded Dice bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Loaded_DiceSince Loaded Dice effect Multi-Hit Moves, a few possibilities are... 1)Reroll 2s & 1s 2)Reroll 1s if the original reroll is also a 1 3)+1 to Multi-Hit Moves I don't know, open to suggestions.
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Post by hecklejeckle87 on Dec 11, 2023 16:22:22 GMT -5
Improved Critical Hit Ratio
Moves such as Slash, Psycho Cut, Leaf Blade, etc, all do essentially the same thing.
This Move inflicts damage and has an increased critical hit ratio.
So, how do we translate this move into a TTRPG? To me the answer is simple.
Most moves only CRIT on a +6, these moves CRIT on a +5. For example...
Slash (Normal)
This Move has a higher chance to CRIT. (Crits on +5 instead of +6).
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Post by hecklejeckle87 on Dec 18, 2023 17:42:47 GMT -5
Stat Changing Moves
The Rule Book (now on version 6, WOOT!) says this about stat moves
"Many Moves raise the Pokémon’s stats or lower those of the opponent’s. As a general guideline, you shouldn’t be able to stack more than a +4 or -4 on any one variable.
A successful Hit allows one +1 to be applied for the duration that the Pokémon is in battle. A Critical Hit allows a second +1 in that category or another that makes sense given the scope of the Move.
For example, a Pokémon using Dragon Dance might get a +1 to their damaging Move rolls, and on a Critical, they may also become speedier. There are a LOT of these with a lot of variation between them." [Page 68 of version Beta 6]
Defense Moves
Moves such as Defense Curl, Iron Defense, Withdraw all give a boost to the user and boost the same thing. Since the boost is always a +1 there BIG difference between these moves is going to be typing.
Now in the video games the type of a move (usually) isn't that big of a deal. But in Pokeymanz, a move having the same type as the Pokemon means that it gets a dice boost during Pokemon/Character Creation. To examine this point, lets look at the moves Withdraw(Water) and compare it to Iron Defense(Steel)
Squirtle/Wartortle/Blastoise have both Withdraw & Iron Defense on their level up move list. In the video game Iron Defense is a straight upgrade to Withdraw since in the Video Game Iron Defense gives a +2 Defense while Withdraw gives only a +1.
But in Pokeymanz, the boost is always a +1 unless on a Crit. So both moves end up looking like this.
Withdraw(Water)/Iron Defense(Steel)
+1 Defense (+2 on a CRIT)
But since Squirtle/etc is a Pure Water Type, Withdraw starts at a d6 while Iron Defense starts at a d4-1. (This is before the 2 free boosts during Pokémon Creation).
Something to keep in mind since a new player's gut reaction is likely going to be to pick Iron Defense since in the Video Game it is better then Withdraw. This also means that Defense Curl on a Normal Pokemon is also a lot better than a player might initially think.
Then there are moves like Amnesia which Boost Special Defense in the Video Game. But since there is no Def or SpD just Toughness, Amnesia in practice does the same thing as any other Defense move.
Amnesia(Psychic)
+1 Defense (+2 on a CRIT)
Attack Moves
A similar situation as with Defense Moves. Moves such as Hone Claws & Swords Dance both do similar things, Raise Attack, in the game it will end up being the same. +1 Attack (+2 on a Crit). But like with Withdraw & Iron Defense, where one is objectively better in the Video Game, in Pokeymanz it is not so clear. The "better" choice will depend on the type of the Pokémon.
Is the Pokémon a Dark Type, then Hone Claws will be better. If a Normal Type Swords Dance will be better. If neither, then try to see if the Pokémon has a boosting move that IS the same type as the user.
Multi Boosts
Then there are all the moves which boost multiple stats. Dragon Dance(+1 Attack & Speed), Bulk Up (+1 Attack & +1 Defense), Calm Mind (+1 SpA & +1 SpD), Quiver Dance (+1 SpA & +1 SpD & +1 Speed)
When designing these moves the Player & GM will have to decide what gets always boosted and what gets boosted on a Crit. Lets look at Calm Mind which could be written two ways.
Calm Mind(Psychic)
+1 Attack (+1 Defense on a Crit)
OR
Calm Mind(Psychic)
+1 Defense, (+1 Attack on a Crit)
There is NOT going to be any one size fits all for this so either move would work. But it is a decision and a conversation that players will have to have with their Game Masters.
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Post by Pika on Dec 19, 2023 15:26:13 GMT -5
Here's a fundamental question that GMs have to work out for themselves! Springboarding on that, I've seen people ask a lot: when a Move has two or more effects listed, are you allowed to pick and choose them out as needed? Even if it's usually an attack move first? Two examples:
Putting aside narrative utility, Hurricane, in the games, produces an attack that may confuse. The way you've discussed it, you would probably notate that effect as Attack (Confuse). But something that often comes up as a difference in rulings is the idea that you could go for Confuse (Attack) instead. Realistically, this means your options would be any of: Damage, Status, Hazard, or Bullshit.
Personally, I don't like to rule it this way - I think it devalues Status Moves, because obviously Confuse Ray does not have its own mechanical secondary effect to draw from and thus would be: Status, Hazard, or Bullshit. Objectively worse! Less options! However, GMs are free to run Moves this way if they like it better.
Similarly, there's the question of if Moves that boost multiple stats let you pick any relevant one or if you must take them in some kind of preferential order. Is Quiver Dance Special Attack (Speed or Toughness), or can you choose any of those three with two on a crit? This I usually rule as any one, but I can see arguments the other way. Again, up to the GM.
Personally, I feel that you should have to be creative and make some use of a Movement action or Arena Feature to use Attacking Moves' status effects "out of order" like that. And you should always be free to use it for bullshit. I always try to emphasize creative use of Moves in my games! It's interesting how the balance and focus changes depending on your interpretation, though.
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Post by Pika on Dec 19, 2023 15:35:10 GMT -5
Oh, a quick addendum - there's a worthwhile argument to be had that this also means that Moves that primarily just "hit hard" like Tackle are inherently devalued, but in actual play I've found that those Moves are much more reliable than you might think. They tend to either be not taken or taken and put to Galaxy-brained use. You'd be surprised how much the narrative effect of "hits thing with my whole body weight aimed forward" can get both in and out of battle. The cutting effect of a Move like Scratch or the practical uses of Vine Whip likewise make a lot of Moves you'd sleep on for their literal effects much better.
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Post by hecklejeckle87 on Dec 21, 2023 2:28:24 GMT -5
Oh, a quick addendum - there's a worthwhile argument to be had that this also means that Moves that primarily just "hit hard" like Tackle are inherently devalued, but in actual play I've found that those Moves are much more reliable than you might think. They tend to either be not taken or taken and put to Galaxy-brained use. You'd be surprised how much the narrative effect of "hits thing with my whole body weight aimed forward" can get both in and out of battle. The cutting effect of a Move like Scratch or the practical uses of Vine Whip likewise make a lot of Moves you'd sleep on for their literal effects much better. The whole "practical uses" thing is ANOTHER topic for another Forum discussion I've considered starting. Something along the lines of... Creative uses for Moves... or Every Move is a Field Move! or Beyond Hidden Moves! Using Moves in a TTRPG!Something silly like that. Because something like Vine Whip, yeah the Pokémon has essentially infinite ropes. Seismic Toss? Instead of jumping across a gap, throw them across the gap! Foresight, helps with searching. Charm, the Pokémon can help there trainer be charming in Social Checks  These are just the ones I've run into or/and thought of. |
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